From ???@??? Tue Jul 02 17:59:30 1996
X-State:  3
X-Total-length:     26117
Received: from NS.MPGN.COM (NS.MPGN.COM [206.66.87.254]) by mail-e2a-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05347 for <bborich@gnn.com>; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:15:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by NS.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA19740 for traveller-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:59:39 -0400
X-UIDL: 836357142.178
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:59:39 -0400
Message-Id: <199607021759.NAA19740@NS.MPGN.COM>
From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #201
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 2 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 201

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Starships
         2. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
         3. Re: Don Perrin Down Under
         4. Re: Virus via E-Mail
         5. Fission reactors
         6. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         7. Re: Naval Ships in Milieu 0 [Td V96#195]
         8. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
         9. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
        10. Re: Rationality
        11. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        12. Re: Virus via E-Mail
        13. Re: Starships
        14. Re: BL vs. BR
        15. Re: Things on MY monitor
        16. Quoting
        17. Marines vs Legion
        18. Re: Disposable PCs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 08:17:27 -0700
Subject: Starships

I realize that this is pretty off topic but since the demise of GDW has 
anyone playing TNE bothered to design a Manticore SDB or the Fusilier or 
Lancer class Frigates for the RC?

I know that there are battle rider stats on all three of these beasties, 
I don't own BR so I don't understand what the stats mean.  If anyone has 
made these ships please E-Mail me I'd love to see them.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:14:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
>>It may be stupid, but it's canon, unless you want to find and burn every
>>extant copy of "Survival Margin."  Keep in mind that, despite other
> 
>    (Pointing flamethrower)  "Hold up your copy, please" :)
> 
>   YOU bear in mind that all this business about the trasnponders STILL
>doesn't explain how the TL6 agro-world's D spaceport traffic control
>computer (without transponder, b/c it's not a starship) is infected by
>Virus through the radar dish.
> Maybe a giant Virus Infectected Starship just dropped out of the sky onto 
the radar dish?  8)  Problem solved.  8)

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:27:33 -0800
Subject: Re: Don Perrin Down Under

On  2 Jul 96 at 21:49, Darryl Adams spewed:

Darryl,

thanks for a nice update.

> 3. QSDS/SSDS. He is quite happy the way this has turned out, especially 
> when I mentioned that I am no gearhead and lothed FFS/MegaTraveller 
> construvction rules. He also likes Stu Golden's comabat rules to go with 
> these system design rules. He feels that Guy's QSDS will be appreciated 
> by smucks like me.

I think you've got me crossed up with Dave Golden though.  Dave's the 
guy who did the tireless work.  I just do the occasional tireless 
ranting ;-)

Nice job Dave & Guy btw.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus via E-Mail

Speaking as a systems engineer, I for one resent being compared to a
slicon life form!

:)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 12:00:18 -0500
Subject: Fission reactors

 ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk> writes:
>Cynthia wrote:
>>>Ship-reactors do face one disaster that current reactors do not: they
>>>fly, and can crash.
>>Submarines swim, and can sink & be crushed. Real World(tm)
>True as far as it goes.  But how many Real World nuclear powered
>submarines are owned and operated by a disreputable bunch of
>traders, wheelers and dealers?  
  Given that I haven't heard a better description of a government in quite 
a while...I'd have to say, "all of them."

>How many Real World nuclear
>powered subs could be owned and run by someone who stole
>it or is skipping out on their ship financing payments?
  Well...if you are willing to include unpaid 'lend/lease'
payments from 50 years ago, all the subs operated by Russia,
Great Britain, and France.  Probably some others as well.

>The great difference between fission powered transport in the
>world today, and fission powered transport in Traveller, is that
>as far as I know today all such craft are in the control of the
>military.
  Well...given the Russian military fire sales of the last few years...

>In Traveller they are in the control of a motley assortment
>of weirdos and criminals, not to mention all the NPC's.
  HEY!  MY PLAYERS RESEMBLE THAT REMARK!  
I like it!

Fission reactors are over engineered to a serious degree.  As several
people have pointed out, the human factor is the greatest safety 
threat.  Ways to offset it include:
1.  Keeping an *certified* engineer on board, even if the rules say you
        don't need one to operate the ship.  Local regs require it.
2.  Annual mainatance includes an expensive & extensive safety check of 
        the fission reactor.
3.  Higher port fees for ships with fission reactors and/or HEPlaR drives.
        To offset safety procedures and all that...





- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
"And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh! 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:00:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Derek Stanley
> 
> PS Over 1/2 of the TV stations we watch up here originate in Seattle or 
> beyond.

Wow, you're getting broadcasts from TV Stations in The Beyond Sector?  Wow!

- -Joe

PS: Oop. That sector was declared non-canon by GDW, wasn't it?
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 96 12:13:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Ships in Milieu 0 [Td V96#195]

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> asked:
> A quick idea to throw out.. What is the proper "header" for an Imperial Navy
> ship?  USS is used for the US Navy, etc..  I'm leaning towards HMS (His
> Majesty's Ship), but then I've been reading a lot of David Weber this week..
> 
> Comments?  How about civilain vessels?

In my campaigns, several abbreviations were used, depending on the service.
The Navy used INS meaning "Imperial Naval Ship"; for example, INS Kinunir.
Navy ships were also numbered (but the numbers were not ordinarily used).
Navy numbers consist of the ship's type letters (BB for battleship, for
example), and a hull number (all ships of the same class had sequential
numbers in a given range; other classes - even of the same type - had
different ranges).  Therefore, BB-705 Vland was one of the Sylea-class
dreadnoughts, all numbered in the 700 series (700 to 765), while the BB-4363
"Panther" was one of the Tigress-class battleships in the 4000 series.

The named ships of the scout service used IISS meaning "Imperial Interstellar
Scout Ship"; for example, IISS Sparkling Distress.  In my campaigns, the
scout service didn't name it's small ships; these were numbered (with a
class letter and a not-quite-random number) and not officially
named (although many crews decorated their craft with nose art and
unofficial names); for example S3253 would be an "S" class scout/courier;
X452 was an "X" class express boat (called "Misha" by her pilot).  The scout
service numbered it's ships consecutively, in the order that the
construction contracts were let (since this did not always mean the ships
were completed at all, let alone in the same order, there are gaps in the
sequences).

Civilian ships (vessels 100 tons and larger) could use SS, meaning either
"Star Ship" or "Space Ship" (for large non-starships), but such use was
considered archaic or "colonial".  To their crews, passengers, and most
other people, the ships were known only by their name (for example:
"Beowulf") or more formally by their class and name ("Free Trader Beowulf").

Officially (and that usually meant only to customs inspectors and the bank
that held the mortgage on the ship), all civilian ships, including
small craft, where known by their registry number.  Like the numbers used by
the Navy (and the civilian ship registry program was originally started by
the Navy), this consisted of a more-or-less random hull number, and
the class letters.  For example, A-4234363 might be the free trader "Wayward
Dream", and A2-572342 would be far trader "Long Shot".


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:36:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

>    YOU bear in mind that all this business about the trasnponders STILL
> doesn't explain how the TL6 agro-world's D spaceport traffic control
> computer (without transponder, b/c it's not a starship) is infected by
> Virus through the radar dish.

Of course, there is no reason to doubt that the Imperium developed
other devices using Deyo chips.  For example, a Deyo chip would make a
perfect facilitator in an encryption/decryption device (complete with
a government backdoor, if you like).  It's not much of a leap to
envision these devices being connected to a multitude of systems:
Banking, Government, Corporate and anything else that requires
security/encryption.

And I think spaceports would have transponders (at least the orbital
part), by the way.  So would satellites and anything else permanently
in orbit.  Afterall, when you pop into a system it's important to know
which sensor echo to set a course towards....or stay away from.

- -- Dave

- --
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:29:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Paul Walker wrote:

> I'm gonna seal my copy in asbestos!!  There are some evil people out there!

Nasty Baganzies, Nasty Baganzies!

>See my post of Quotes from Survival Margin!  Virus can only inflitrate
>through sensors with GREAT (read great, big, huge, stupendous) 
>difficulties, and it was NEVER done!  Also, I'm at work now, so I don't 
>have SM with me (its in my concrete safe surrounded by asbestos in the 
>bomb shelter under my house!), but IIRC all starports and many other 
>places installed transponders.  I know if I ran a big investment 
>company, I'd want a transponder to tell me exactly when my J-6 courrier 
>arrived in system with info on the Imperial Stock Market!
>I've never had a problem with Virus infecting ships through passive 
sensors.  Let's face it all Passive EMS is is a giant ear picking up 
every piece of electromagnetic information in your area, from stellar 
data, to gas giant radio emissions, from old Jack Benny programs to 
Virus.  To a Passive EMS array it's all electo-magnetic information that 
must be processed then handed off to the sensor suite.  This sensor suite 
data is then routed through the main computer so anyone from the guy in 
laser turret A to the captian can access that information and see what's 
out there.

Active sensor's I have much more of a problem with them becoming 
infected, but lets face it it is possible.  Active sensors send out a 
pulse of energy, (One Ping, Mister Zhdanov.) now if this was all active 
sensors did it'd be impossible to infect via them.  However, like passive 
sensors active sensors have a receiver array, that big pulse of energy is 
useless unless you have someway of receiving and processing return 
echo's.  Now the EMS Active system would be programmed to receive only 
return echo's at a certian wave length, what ever the out going pulse is 
set to.  Assuming that you can determine the wave length of that pulse, 
which considering the amount of energy that's flying around will be 
fairly easy you could in theory piggyback the Virus on the return echo 
which has to be recieved and processed by the ship.

Now I realize active sensors are not designed to interpret data, but that 
doesn't matter, the virus, already in the active processing buffer merely 
digs it's little hidey hole in the circutry and develops.  Now I'm not 
saying that this is going to happen regularly.  Hell lets face it it's 
probably going to be the most rare of all virus transfers.  However in 
the case where none of the easy access ports are available, Transponder, 
Radio or Passive Sensors in that order.  Active Sensors could be used as 
a method of infection.

Given that you assume the basic the nature of Virus as presented 
in Survival Margin to be true, "silicon lifeform able to parasitize chips 
at a distance, blah blah blah yakity shmakity..." is this not a 
possibility?

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:30:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Rationality

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
>>Oh, crud!  We're starting to agree on things!  Can it be that some
>>rationality is finally starting to creep into the discussion, or could 
>>it
> 
>I've been trying!
> 
>>So, how 'bout them rocks?
> 
>Rocks, I thought we were talking about Feudal Technocracy?

Ahh, just drop a Virus infected asteriod on them that'll fix the whole 
thing. 8)

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:35:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
> 
> > Derek Stanley
> >
>>PS Over 1/2 of the TV stations we watch up here originate in Seattle or
>> beyond.
> 
>Wow, you're getting broadcasts from TV Stations in The Beyond Sector?  
>Wow! 
And I though those strange programs were just coming from FOX and UPN.  
Now I see I was mistaken.

> -Joe
> 
> PS: Oop. That sector was declared non-canon by GDW, wasn't it?
> I'm not sure let me check my Cannon... 8)

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:31:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus via E-Mail

Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> Speaking as a systems engineer, I for one resent being compared to a
> slicon life form!
> 
> :)

Sorry, Sorry, never happen again.  Never again...  8)

Derek



------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 02 Jul 96 12:40:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Starships

whats off topic about Battle-riders? Jus' coz it doesn't go on at length about
Virus or falling stones it is suddenly deemed off-topic? oh, my poor head.....

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:45:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

> From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
> 
> Thus spake Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>:
> 
> After I mumbled something in response to:
> [snipped assertion that BL is tactical, BR strategic]  
> > Untrue.  Both games use the same spatial, temporal, and unit scales.  
> 
> You know, I believe I said as much in the next paragraph, which you 
> didn't quote.

Quite possible, though I don't recall one way or another.  In any case, I 
thought it best to clarify matters, as if you did go on to say that, it 
must've looked a bit contradictory. :)

> > Both are purely tactical simulations.  Fifth Frontier War is an example 
> > of a "grand strategic" game.  In general, 'tactics' describes how a 
> > particular battle is fought, when opposing units move into engagement; 
> > 'strategy' describes how forces are deployed so as to fight engagements 
> > favorable to your objectives.  To use a real-world example, the decision 
> > of where and when to stage the invasion of France in 1944 was strategic; 
> > the process of actually taking the five beaches was tactical.
> 
> [snippage...]
> 
> What I meant to illustrate was the difference in scale between the two 
> game systems, which I feel I managed effectively.  I am probably at least 
> as guilty of getting the terms 'strategic' and 'tactical' wrong as the 
> guy who asked the original question, which inferred that one game system 
> was 'strategic,' while the other was 'tactical.'  I hope that you can 
> forgive me for that.

And that's precisely my point -- there is *no* difference in scale between
BL and BR.  Each uses 30 minute time units, 30,000 km space units, and one
counter = one ship.  There is a difference in *detail level* between the
two systems, but not of scale.

There's no need to ask forgiveness, btw.  This list is all about learning,
exploration, and mutual support of a hobby we all enjoy.  There's no
reason at all for issues of guilt or blame to come up. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:06:06 MST7
Subject: Re: Things on MY monitor

Leonard Erickson says:
>Derek Stanley says:
> > I've always loved that device.  Marvin the Martian sits atop my monitor 
> > as stares at me as I write all my letters.  Which explains a lot your 
> > letters would be pretty strange too if you had to write them while 
> > someone else was staring at you.
> 
> I have a toy racoon, and a large pink rabbit (looks like he's related
> to the Energizer Bunny, if you get those commercials down there)
> sitting in corners watching me. And my messages aren't strange. (yeah,
> right...) 

	All right, all right...I have: (left to right)

A fluorescent pink rat, a somewhat battered plastic T-rex holding 
some sort of cannon looking thing,  a small chunk of fossilized 
turtle dung, a dimetrodon, and an Alien (from the Aliens movie) 
grappling with a legless small action figure, provenance unknown.

I ride my bike in to work; kids throw the strangest things out of
car windows out into the streets. Each of these is a found item,
except for the turtle dung...I got that at the big Gem and Mineral
show here in Tucson a couple of years back. That's there so that
when some smartass asks me how's it going, when I'm busy I just hand
it to 'em and say 'Same old sh*t!' Since it looks like considerably
*less* fossilized than it actually is, it henerally gets quite a
reaction.

oB TRaveller: Any of you from around Tucson know what it's like, but 
the annual Gem and Mineral Show(s) here in February is the largest of 
it's kind in the world. Dealers in anything geological related, gems, 
mineral specimens, fossil dealers (a couple of years ago, one big 
dealer set up a complete mastodon fossil in the entrance to the hotel 
where they were showing their stuff....had I a spare 75 grand lying 
around, I'd have a hell of a entranceway!), jewelry, both finished 
and supplies, mining equipment, and on and on.  People start arriving 
in mid-january, and all the motels along the interstate are full of 
people selling all sorts of stuff.

	Some estimates of the amount of money that changes hands run int the 
hundreds of millions. I have seen big suitcases stuffed with cut 
gemstones, worth millions.

	All these people arrive in planes, in beat up cars, in U-Haul 
trucks, etc. Something like this would be a fabulous place for PC's 
to find adventure and patrons...with a little imagination almost any 
scenario could be set up, security, kidnapping, theft, swindles, and 
the prevention of the same, lost Ancient artifacts, holy relics.

	Imagine being asked to handle 75 tons of delicate fossil remains. Or 
a crate full of beautiful radioactive crystals.  Or a cargo of 
(unbeknownst to the PC's) fake gemstones, being sent out as bait to 
distract attention from the real shipment.  He He He.

There's a shipping problem for you!

	Hmmm...I think I'll pop over and get JTAS submission guidelines ;)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 09:47:34 -0800
Subject: Quoting

>If I've been out of line in my quoting style because the mailing list
>culture is different from usenet and BBS culture, then I apologize.  If
>the people who contribute to this list feel that is the case, then I will
>change my ways.
>
>
>- -Joe

here, here! Bravo. The BBS Culture is different... WWIV quoting makes us
TMLers look sparse, and Fidonet just goes to the dogs <EFG>. But seriously,
the quoting is needed; I spend 1-2 hours a day reading e-mail. I need
quoting to call up what people are talking about....

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 18:52:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Marines vs Legion

There was an interesting program on the French Foreign Legion
one quote i liked was

"The assault course in the rainforest is tough and grueling.  The
quickest time recorded was 45 minutes by som legionnaires.  The longest
time recorded to complete the course was by a bunch of visiting 
American Marines, who took 7 hours to complete it."

My point is that the biggest force and best 'advanced' may not
be the best for the job.

Program ran on Channel 4, last week Mon+Tuesday 9.00-10.00.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:56:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

>From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: Disposable PCs
>
>Tom Ellis wrote:
>> 
>> On 1 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
>> 
>> > Dave Golden said:
>> > >Since I lost my group before they ever got
>> > >anywhere near needing a decent explanation...
>> >
>> > No, no, no, no... you are allowed to kill off the
>> > characters, but it is frowned upon to kill off the players.
>> 
>> What??  WHAT???!!  I have been refing for 18 years and NOW you tell me
>> that when a character dies I am NOT supposed to kill the PLAYER TOO???
>> 
>> Jeeze...
>
> Perhaps this is why you had so much trouble convincing new players to 
>join.  8)

You guys kept trying to argue that it was the CCG market that was stealing
RPGers!!  And here you were really killing them all the time!  Souns like a
case for the Wonder Twins!  ("Wonder Twin powers, activate"  "Form of, an
Ice Rock." "Shape of, a Computer Virus")

;)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #201
**********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".
